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sleepall_day in mirrormaskmovie

Valentine doll

Hey guys! Just discovered something that made me go "heyyyy..." Hahah. I don't sound very intelligent right now, but whatever.

In a previous post I was talking about Valentine's character and how he actually got into Helena's dream world if she didn't know about him earlier. Here's something else to add to the puzzle...

Here you can see a Valentine doll! I just thought it was really interesting. My theory is that maybe she created that whole world, and she created a character called Valentine (hence why she was saying "Mr. Valentine, have you come to save our city?"). But she doesn't have THAT much control over that world. For instance, she didn't consciously make her mother into a queen and her father a prime minister, although that probably happened because they have authority in her life.

So she created the character Valentine and by doing so it pulled this real life guy into that dream world - the person closest to what she would want for a boyfriend, I guess? And that's how she ended up meeting him.

Hehe, sorry guys, a couple of friends and I have been kind of mulling over the subject even though we all agree that this movie really is just up for interpretation. I think I was just thinking about this more (and therefore posting here) because this was one thing we couldn't really agree on.


Thanks so much for the screencap, sleepall_day. The contents of Helena's room form the raw material for her dream of the Light and Dark Lands, so naturally a Valentine-like figure would be there. I wonder, though, why he's named by name and detailed so specifically, unlike the Light and Dark Queens [who are just socks!].


P.S. This also complicates the subject of dolls in MM. Dolls appear in the music box scene when they are making Helena over, but I didn't notice that they appear in Helena's real world. Hmmmm...
I don't think it literally pulled a real-life guy into the dream world. Arguably, the real-life guy is just the real-life parallel to the dreamquivalent Valentine... right? He doesn't seem to know her or know what she's talking about with the "waiter" thing at the end, after all.

Neat to see the doll's there, though. :)
Yeah, it could go either way, but I just thought that it somehow pulled a real-life guy into the dream world. And then when she found the MirrorMask and sort of "undid" what the dark princess Helena did, it pretty much put things back to normal. And when Valentine escaped and came back to the real world I think he just forgot that memory. I mean, her parents don't remember it either. Maybe Helena is the only one who remembers it because she created the world?
Hmmmm. It'd just be so... random, for the dream to literally pull some guy she didn't know into the dream world and then spit him back out again so she could meet him later.

I'd hazard that there are just dream equivalents of all sorts of people in this alternate-dreamaverse. For example, the two guys Valentine's with in the beginning are from the circus, and despite what happens to them there, they're (presumably?) still alive after the dream is over.

Also, I suspect the world doesn't cease to exist just because Helena woke up; after all, it existed before she went there (Anti-Helena escaped during that period of time) and she saved it, so presumably it continues onward.

Her dad doesn't say anything about it, but for all we know her mom might remember this -- after all, wasn't there one scene where her mom appeared as her normal self (rather than either of the Queens) and concluded she was having a dream about Helena?

You say "when Valentine escaped and came back to the real world"... when would that be? I thought the whole point of the future fruit scene that he decided NOT to escape, that that wasn't a world he'd be willing or able to deal with. And I don't think he'd go just to chase Helena; after all, Valentine has been reunited with his tower and has learned A Valuable Lesson. :D
I think the solution to the Valentine puzzle might depend on how you see the dream world. (I don't think there's a "right" or "wrong" to this, just different interpretations.) Is the dream world an actual independent world that Helena managed to fall into because of dreaming or it a world that existed solely for the duration of her dream? That anti-Helena escaped before Helena arrived isn't necessarily proof that the world exists independently. I've had "back story" in my own dreams and I know others who have as well.

Whichever of those it is (I haven't really decided yet, I don't know if I will), I think the Valentine is not a person taken from real life and put into the dream world. I think the in the dream world Valentine represents Helena's imagination's idea of what her boyfriend should be/could be/would be like. When he has the vision of being a waiter, that's his vision; she knows he's a waiter only because he cries out: "I don't want to be a waiter." When she meets him in the waking world, I don't think it's his face that she recognizes--I think she has that "love at first sight" kind of feeling that people have some times when they develop an immediate rapport with someone based on an instinctual awareness of who they are. Since she associates that feeling with Valentine from the dream, she makes the "you'd have made a terrible waiter" comment to him but since he wasn't in the dream world he doesn't understand.
I completely agree with that analysis...Helena's vision of a bf matches her initial impression of the "real" Valentine, which allows them to make an immediate connection.

found this blog through google.
I would also add...the very fact that this guy's name is Valentine must imply that she is waiting for the perfect someone, and she's had a long time to think about how he must be like.
"So she created the character Valentine and by doing so it pulled this real life guy into that dream world - the person closest to what she would want for a boyfriend, I guess? And that's how she ended up meeting him."

omfg. wow. u solved the puzzle. i was wondering that the whole time b/w when i saw the movie and watched it again on dvd. i mean it didn't all come together until you just said that. it makes So much sense now.

It reminds me of Labyrinth, where most of the characters in the Labyrinth world are from Sarah's room. From Hoggle to Jareth, they were all there.
I think that the dreamworld characters that Helena encounters represent how she perceives the various people in her life (or that she's yet to meet). Her mother is a contradictory force of overbearing authority (the Dark Queen) and yet the source of life, hope, and unconditional faith in Helena (the White Queen's blossoming flowers indicating trust in Helena's abilities). The Prime Minister as Helena's father is a figure standing in for an absent authority figure (as Helena's mum is incapacitated), serving as the caretaker of the happy life that Helena's mother could make for her family.

And so Valentine -- Valentine's presence in Helena's dreamscape would suggest that the dreamworld is a *shared* environment; after all, Valentine exists in real life despite Helena never having met him. Therefore, Helena's perception of Valentine's dreamworld counterpart is her own interpretation of his existence despite their not having actually met yet. Helena must contend with the the nature of Valentine; a beguiling, charming, attractive individual who possesses skills and experience important and meaningful to Helena, yet preoccupied with his own agenda and avarice which may conflict with Helena's wants and needs -- just like boys in real life. It's important, of course, that in the dreamscape, Valentine wears a *mask*; to Helena, Valentine in her dreams can only wear the face she gives him.
I was just thinking about this while walking home from school and thought of some more theories to complicate things further.

If you believe that this word is made entirely from Helena's mind, it is very possible that she met other-Valentine very breifly before the story happened and forgot about him, but he stayed in her mind subconciously only to be pulled out during the dream. He might have been someone she passed on the street that she thought was attractive, hence him being used as a sort of "boyfriend-like" character. It is proven that people's minds will do this, store away information that can only be retrieved sub-conciously.

To continue

If Valentine looked into the future and saw himself as a waiter, we don't know just how far into the future Valentine went, exactly

He may have just gone into the future a few seconds further than what was happening in the dreamworld, because time is actually happening in the real world at the same time.

Also, I'm going to incorporate what maidm said above, and that if Valentine was really going into the future a few seconds, and saw himself waiting tables, then if Helena had gone to that restaurant with her parents on some occasion (I'm not sure how that would fit in budget wise, but maybe on Helena's birthday or something, as a treat; they do, after all run a circus that seems to be ailing a bit) she would have seen Valentine's real life counterpart and subconsciously remembered him.

So, Helena could have just had her table waited on by him, and then pulled him back into the dreamworld just like ireactions mentioned.

Also, Valentine is very much freaking out about having to be a waiter, so that may have been why his real world character wants very much to join the circus (and has a troupe of two others at the start before they are taken by the Shadows).

This very neatly pulls two theories together into an entirely new one.

If that made any sense.


Alright, Anyone see back to the future? When they go back in time and mess something up, it skews off another version of the future. Maybe thats like what the anti-helena was doing in the 'real' world. It wasn't the original real world, but a branching of or a changing of the original real world, and that was why no one 'remembered' it.

Somehow, I totally diverted from my original course of thought.

But as to the shared environment comment, that would explain why her mother thought that was her dream. Maybe it is everyone's dream, and everyone is in it, but not everyone knows it. Maybe everyone's characters are different, seen in different perspectives. I think Helena remembers it because she was physically there, and Anti-Helena remembers it because she was also physically there, and she came out. If a dream character came into the 'real' world, would they remeber it too?
I think in the dreamland everyone has a counterpart. Helena met mainly people she already knew. (Her father, the fiddler, her mother ect)
When she met someone she didn't know, in the real world it pulled the person to her as well. Not the dolls or the librarians, because they didn't have recognizable faces, but mainly Valentine.
Sort of like when you put a magnet on the top of a table and another on the bottom, and another set the same way. If you pull the magnets together on one side, they come together on the other side.
Maybe Valentine and Helena came together and were just pulled together in the other world.

Just watched the movie for the first time an hour ago, so don't be "hatin'"!
I think that's my favorite theory so far. :D
Stumbled upon your LJ while looking for MirrorMask stuff. Yeah, I noticed that doll, too! And if you listen, the conversation goes

"Mr Valentine, you've come to save our city!"
"Well, I am a very imprtant man"
"You're going to be a very dead man in a minute"

I thought it was cool, since those last two comments come up later in the film.

June 2012



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